rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 12:28:31 AM
drpepperTX - "Oh how easily they dismiss the fact that Keystone will pump $7 BILLION in private infrastructure investment into the U.S. economy. Will add $5 BILLION annually in taxes to the U.S. economy, create jobs and reduce dependence on overseas oil imports."
Using foreign materials. What $5 billion in taxes? It will only create a couple of thousand temporary jobs.
And most of the oil it will displace is being used to produce products that are being exported anyway. How is increasing domestic gas prices a benefit?
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 18, 2012 12:15:27 AM
Oh how easily they dismiss the fact that Keystone will pump $7 BILLION in private infrastructure investment into the U.S. economy. Will add $5 BILLION annually in taxes to the U.S. economy, create jobs and reduce dependence on overseas oil imports.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 11:14:44 PM
GasPriceHelp4u - "If it benefits the Country's economy, she should not be fighting it...its selfish!!!"
The thing is, despite fervent claims to the contrary, it won't benefit the country's economy. Keystone XL is estimated to increase the price of gas in the Midwest by roughly 20¢ a gallon. That will hurt the US economy.
The major beneficiaries of Keystone XL are TransCanada and the oil companies.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 2:46:39 PM
Batdan, check out page 20 of this document:
Denbury case found NOT relevant to Crawford case
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 2:24:00 PM
Some interesting reading can be found in the Judgement of the Sixth Court Of Appeals:
"Keystone is preparing to construct a section of pipeline that is referred to as theGulf Coast Section. See generally Tab l. The Gulf Coast Section is Phase III of theKeystone XL Pipeline Project, which is an existing common carrier pipeline system that is comprised of approximately 2,151 miles of crude oil pipelines. Id. The Gulf CoastSection will extend from Cushing, Oklahoma to the Port Arthur, Texas area, and will transport U.S. crude oil obtained from various sources in the Cushing, Oklahoma area, including domestic crude oil shipped from oilfields in Texas, Oklahoma andsurrounding States, and Canadian crude oil from Keystone’s existing common carrierpipeline system, to the Port Arthur area. Id.
text deleted
Page 17
HERE
[Edited by: drpepperTX at 3/17/2012 2:24:32 PM EST]
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 2:13:58 PM
I know Rehorsehay! Isn't this some interesting stuff?
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Rehorsehay
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:57:21 PM
Oh goodness boys!
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:49:25 PM
Actually tea, you and many other have it BACKWARDS. Eminent domain law PROTECTS landowners from just any company condemning private property.
See the recent case:
Texas Rice Land Partners vs Denbury Green
In this case of the Crawford Fam, Transcanada, a company doing business in the U.S. and meeting the necessary definition of 'common carrier' status has the right, after making an offer which the landowner REJECTED, to proceed with condemnation.
Condemnation means that a court with 3 special commissioners appointed to determine fair market value to be PAID TO THE LANDOWNER will be convened. In this case it is for an EASEMENT 50' wide thru a portion of the Crawford land. The Crawford can still farm above the buried pipeline if they wish. The only limitation should be they cannot Build a structure within the 50' easement. I have served as a special commissioner myself in many condemnation hearings, so I speak from actual first hand experience.
Think about this, over 98% of the landowners in Texas and every other state for that matter have accepted Transcanada's offers. Transcanada is offering fair market to have this record.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:47:59 PM
As a landowner myself, of a homestead and 2 ranches in Texas, you should know that I'm no great fan of eminent domain and I'm glad the Court is there in cases like Denbury. But if a company has legit claim to eminent domain and like Transcanada, has been able to satisfactorily negotiate with over 98% of the landowners without having to condemn, my experience as a special commissioner in condemnation cases tells me Transcanada or any other company with a record of 98% agreement, has gone thru the process fairly and offered an obviously fair amount of $20,000.00.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:44:46 PM
Since 2008 hmmmm....Does it appear that the Crawford's attorney has timed things pretty well? Think about this, ongoing since 2008, and now that Transcanada has reached agreement with almost every Texas landowner; they could very well be thinking that Transcanada can't change all those other agreements and are stuck with the holdout Crawfords and a route now determined.
Hoping for a larger payout from Transcanada with this info in hand???
What's the risk for the Crawfords? Not much when you really think about it, they will get paid fairly for the easement in the end wether it is through a condemnation hearing or direct agreement with Transcanada.
And they still retain ownership of all their property and likely received lots of other peoples money from their 'defense' fund.
Just a theory...:=)
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teafortwo
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:35:21 PM
This type of private commercial use of "eminent domain"?
Could establish that any of these BIG GREED corporations could be able to come along
and tell a private landowner:
"Hey you. Get out of OUR way.
OUR BIG GREED plans for your land are more important than YOUR plans for your land" .... ?
Thanks for the additional information Batdan ;0}
FROM THE ARTICLE:
A court date to separately appeal TransCanada’s use of eminent domain to route the Keystone XL pipeline across her land is scheduled for April 30th.
BIG OIL & GAS & COAL love us
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:34:48 PM
The Crawfords first got notice in 2008 that TransCanada was interested in their property. After she declined an initial offer of $7,000, the company bumped the offer to $20,000.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:30:04 PM
As for the Denbury case, Transcanada is a completely different situation.
See my earlier posts.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 1:28:57 PM
Wow! LOL, from the Crawford Family 'Begging for other peoples money' website:
Lie#1 "What if a private corporation decided that they wanted to take your land for their own private gain? What if the state you lived in let them do it, whether you wanted to sell your land or not?"
============================
Transcanada is not attempting to buy the land.
Lie#2 "After the Crawford family refused to sell to TransCanada"
============================
The Crawford family could not refuse an offer that never existed. Transcanada never offered to BUY the land.
Lie#3 "So far, the Governor and our two US Senators, Cornyn and Hutchison, are siding with TransCanada and apparently see no problem with the abuse of eminent domain in Texas."
============================
There has been abuse alleged, the Governor and Senators are simply standing by the "rule of law".
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GasPriceHelp4u
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 6:37:05 AM
If it benefits the Country's economy, she should not be fighting it...its selfish!!!
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BIGOILEATURCRUD
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 6:34:36 AM
Seems the Canucks have opened a can of "whoop-ass" on this one.
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honda0105
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Message Posted: Mar 17, 2012 12:17:16 AM
Batdan: TC has being telling untruth about a lot of this project (from how many jobs to where the jobs were and how the pipe was made, etc.).
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Batdan
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:40:24 PM
Well that didn't take long.
I believe TransCanada is lying after listening to just a bit from Crawford on a short video that has another landowner mentioning that TC was tresspassing on his land and had it surveyed and staked. I tried to be fair and give them the benefit of
doubt.
http://www.standwithjulia.com/
Crawford Family Defense Fund
And this legal precedent.
Texas Supreme Court... Favors Landowners
[Edited by: Batdan at 3/16/2012 10:45:26 PM EST]
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Batdan
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 10:18:12 PM
I'd like to know how much TransCanada offered her and if it really is about her wanting more, how much more.
If it's just about the money, I have less or no sympathy for her, unless the money offered is truly a not a fair amount.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 11:34:00 AM
drpepperTX - "rj, obstinance will not get a passing grade. Only by completing your homework will one be able to understand. :=]"
Please note that we're not talking about US crude oil, but Canadian crude oil, so your 'homework' is even less meaningful than it first appeared.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 11:17:49 AM
rj, obstinance will not get a passing grade. Only by completing your homework will one be able to understand. :=]
Then again in today's classroom, where 1+1= whatever makes the student feel good about themself, homework really doesn't matter.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 11:08:40 AM
drpepperTX - "honda0105, you are absolutely right, but only because it has not even been built."
No, because those promises are just hot air.
[Edited by: rjhenn at 3/16/2012 11:09:20 AM EST]
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 9:08:08 AM
honda0105, you are absolutely right, but only because it has not even been built.
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honda0105
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Message Posted: Mar 16, 2012 5:59:34 AM
no matter how you look at it, the pipeline isn't doing what TransCanada is promising (which is hot gas and a warm fuzzy feeling at best).
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 7:57:41 PM
drpepperTX - "LOL, rjhenn, you said something about diverting attention?
Remember that I posted this:"
Which is a counter to an argument I'm not making, and nobody else in this topic has made in days, thus a diversion.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 7:54:54 PM
drpepperTX - "rj, you still haven't completed your homework assignment. This has resulted in a failing grade in market theory."
It's a good thing you're not taking such a class. Also, that I'm not taking such a class from you.
"However, you can take the course over again by completing the first assignment which to refresh your memory is to research how many barrels of CRUDE OIL the U.S. exported in 2011."
How much crude oil was exported is irrelevant. The fact is, it COULD be exported, which is what will determine the price. Or don't you understand how markets work?
"In addition you will need to complete another assignment, what percentage of daily REFINED PRODUCT, which you only dilineated as 'significant', is exported?"
Again, doesn't matter. The availability of Canadian crude will change the market dynamic, to the detriment of the American consumer.
"Once these two assignments are completed you may enter the new class."
If you're teaching it, I'll pass.
I just had a horrifying thought. You don't actually teach economics, do you?
[Edited by: rjhenn at 3/15/2012 7:55:51 PM EST]
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 4:37:52 PM
LOL, rjhenn, you said something about diverting attention?
Remember that I posted this:
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
drpepperTX
Champion Author Texas
Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 12:15:02 PM Ignore drpepperTX Report Abuse
Right now there are already about 3,000 miles of crude oil or liquid pipelines in Nebraska, the biggest part of contention for the Keystone XL, these pipelines already operate safely over the Ogallala Aquifer. Many oil producing wells have been drilled and are in production within areas over the Ogallala Aquifer. While the risk of an oil release from this pipeline in an area where it could reach the aquifer is low, what these existing wells and pipelines show is that even if it does occur, the impact is very local and and has been managed. What is the proof? With all this activity has the aquifer been 'poisoned' yet?
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
See the importance of doing your homework!
When you do your homework you will be prepared for class! :=]
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 3:12:26 PM
rj, you still haven't completed your homework assignment. This has resulted in a failing grade in market theory.
However, you can take the course over again by completing the first assignment which to refresh your memory is to research how many barrels of CRUDE OIL the U.S. exported in 2011. In addition you will need to complete another assignment, what percentage of daily REFINED PRODUCT, which you only dilineated as 'significant', is exported?
Once these two assignments are completed you may enter the new class.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 2:39:38 PM
drpepperTX - "Is is not interesting that the opposition to Keytstone XL have almost completely abandoned the environmental aspect of their agenda?"
Isn't it interesting that you're trying to divert attention from the failed economic argument for Keystone XL?
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 2:38:41 PM
drpepperTX - "The very simple and basic market concept that most are able to understand tells us that the pipeline would reduce gasoline prices by helping to free up the bottle neck associated with getting crude oil out of storage tanks in Cushing, Oklahoma to refineries on the Gulf Coast. Pipeline capacity out of Cushing is constrained, but if Keystone were built, it would increase supply and thus lower refined product prices from Gulf Coast refineries."
The problem with that argument is that getting the crude to the Gulf Coast not only changes the supply, but also the demand. The demand won't be strictly from US refineries selling to US consumers, but from US refineries selling to world consumers, as well as foreign refineries that would be a potential market for the crude.
And Gulf Coast refineries are already exporting a significant amount of their product. Rather than increasing supply in the US, Keystone XL will just increase the amount they can export.
Again, Keystone XL will result in Canadian crude demanding a higher price, thus increasing US gas prices.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 9:18:52 AM
Is is not interesting that the opposition to Keytstone XL have almost completely abandoned the environmental aspect of their agenda?
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honda0105
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 6:00:20 AM
rj: I kinda thought the same. There's no guarantee that the refined products are sold in the US. Other markets are much higher priced, which gives more money to the companies selling. Why sell here when you get a lot more overseas?
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honda0105
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 5:58:46 AM
great suggestion bigoil. lol.
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BIGOILEATURCRUD
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Message Posted: Mar 15, 2012 4:46:50 AM
Seems the neighborly thing to do would be for drpepperTX to donate his land to the foreign company for transport of foreign crude and U.S. petro products to foreign markets.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 11:10:11 PM
The very simple and basic market concept that most are able to understand tells us that the pipeline would reduce gasoline prices by helping to free up the bottle neck associated with getting crude oil out of storage tanks in Cushing, Oklahoma to refineries on the Gulf Coast. Pipeline capacity out of Cushing is constrained, but if Keystone were built, it would increase supply and thus lower refined product prices from Gulf Coast refineries.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 7:28:43 PM
No battle. VomVOm & drpepperTX simply think that the normal rules of capitalism somehow don't apply to the pipeline business. Yet they can't explain why, or why the owner of crude oil would sell it to one customer for less than he can get for it from another.
[Edited by: rjhenn at 3/14/2012 7:29:09 PM EST]
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asog75
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 1:12:14 AM
OH OH sounds like a battle going on on this page!!!!! im outta here!!!
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 1:06:30 AM
drpepperTX - "rj, don't talk back to the teacher young grasshopper.
You still haven't done your homework and finals are approaching!"
IOW, you know you're wrong and can't think of a way out.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 12:33:16 AM
rj, don't talk back to the teacher young grasshopper.
You still haven't done your homework and finals are approaching!
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 14, 2012 12:20:41 AM
drpepperTX - "rjhenn, uh oh, someone didn't do their homework."
Perhaps you should.
"Please remember your original opinion: 'Canadian crude is cheaper now because they can only sell it on the domestic US market. Once it reaches the Gulf Coast, it will be on the world market, and demand higher prices than it does on the domestic US market.'"
Meaning you have no idea how a market works. Canadian crude doesn't have to be exported to command the same price it would if it was actually exported. The fact that it could be exported makes it as valuable as if it actually was being exported. And if U.S. refineries don't pay that price, then it will be exported.
It's only business.
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VomVom
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2012 11:27:16 PM
drpepper, save your breath. Trying to educate rjhenn is a complete waste of time. He has no clue. Doesn't understand the pipeline business but continues to use false information to support his argument.
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drpepperTX
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Texas
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2012 11:23:41 PM
rjhenn, uh oh, someone didn't do their homework.
Please remember your original opinion: "Canadian crude is cheaper now because they can only sell it on the domestic US market. Once it reaches the Gulf Coast, it will be on the world market, and demand higher prices than it does on the domestic US market."
Please, complete your homework assignment, then we can have a discussion in the classroom.
Until then class is dismissed. Thank you.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2012 11:12:24 PM
drpepperTX - "rjhenn, this is apparently futile because you can't comprehend the difference between crude oil exports and refined product (distillates) exports."
No, it's futile because you don't want to admit that it doesn't make a difference.
Now, if I've got, just to pick some numbers, 10,000 barrels a day of Canadian crude coming into Houston every day, and I can get $50 a barrel from the local refineries, which is what Midwestern refineries were paying me for the same crude, and $75 a barrel from someone who wants to send the crude to Europe to be refined, what are the local refineries going to have to do to get that oil?
And if I can get $75 a barrel from someone else, are the Midwestern refineries going to be able to continue to get the same crude for $50 a barrel?
And once the price goes up, we're still not going to be exporting any of that crude, just paying more money for it. Because we could export it if the local refineries didn't pay more for it.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2012 2:29:35 PM
rjhenn, this is apparently futile because you can't comprehend the difference between crude oil exports and refined product (distillates) exports. Now that's not entirely your fault, the media does not bother with those details, the media would rather keep the uninformed ignorant of the distinction.
Tell you what, do some research on how many barrels of crude oil the U.S. exports per year. Not petroleum distillates (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, kerosene etc.) but crude oil. Hint, it is less than 20,000 bbls....
Post your findings and we can get back to discussion.
Thanks.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 13, 2012 1:22:17 PM
drpepperTX - "That only goes on the assumption it will be sold and exported as crude. The plans are for this oil to be refined in Gulf Coast refineries. A lot of people are confusing exported product as oil, but the vast majority of the exports are refined product distillates. Why have the Gulf Coast refineries invested billions and expanded and upgraded to refine bitumen, if as you say, they are going to export CRUDE oil??? Makes no sense at all."
Once it's available at a port that can export it, it will demand a world price. Otherwise the owners will make more money by exporting it, so why wouldn't they? That makes no sense.
The only way to keep the price of Canadian crude down is to keep it away from where it can be exported to the rest of the world.
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Edpap
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 8:03:05 PM
Disappointed that you can't tell the Democrats from the Republicans....put it on 60 minutes and enlighten everyone as to how our politicians defend their citizens.
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drpepperTX
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Texas
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 3:02:17 PM
That only goes on the assumption it will be sold and exported as crude. The plans are for this oil to be refined in Gulf Coast refineries. A lot of people are confusing exported product as oil, but the vast majority of the exports are refined product distillates. Why have the Gulf Coast refineries invested billions and expanded and upgraded to refine bitumen, if as you say, they are going to export CRUDE oil??? Makes no sense at all.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 2:51:39 PM
Canadian crude is cheaper now because they can only sell it on the domestic US market. Once it reaches the Gulf Coast, it will be on the world market, and demand higher prices than it does on the domestic US market.
On the world market, demand is still outstripping supply.
[Edited by: rjhenn at 3/12/2012 2:52:28 PM EST]
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 2:31:42 PM
rjhenn asks "So why do we want to increase the price for Canadian oil, which is what will happen when significant quantities reach the Gulf Coast?"
=================================================
Don't include me in "WE want to increase". But it is rather counterintuitive that when a supply is increased that price will also increase, so I see no gaurantees the price of Canadian or U.S. Bakken oils will rise. The Canadian oil will suposedly help replace expiring contracts for South American tar sands oil, and it is still cheaper and safer to pipe oil from Canada (75%) and the U.S. Bakken fields (25%) than importing by tankers from overseas.
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drpepperTX
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 2:21:42 PM
"A private company should not be allowed to use eminent domain!"
=====================================================
So railroads should never have been built and allowed the remedy of eminent domain? Lobby to have the laws changed is the only recourse but that is what we'd be up against.
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rjhenn
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 2:15:51 PM
drpepperTX - "It's hard to argue about the price of gas in areas of the U.S. that are able to utilize Canadian oil:"
So why do we want to increase the price for Canadian oil, which is what will happen when significant quantities reach the Gulf Coast?
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sparky808
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Message Posted: Mar 12, 2012 1:23:23 PM
Thank you for posting.
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